The LFR discussion

[Jinzaak]

8 day suspensions + forum privileges stripped + loot taken away apparently for U.S servers

Yes thats for US. EU would prolly get it tomorrow.

[ByebyeSponsors]

* In my opinion you should´t have been using the LFR exploit, or use any exploit in General.
* In my opinion you should not be pointing at other guilds and say they do the same, 10 years old does that `He stole a lolly so i did too`.
* I had high expectations and respect for Paragon, I lost my respect for you.
* You might loose Sponsors now.

[Nicolai S]

1st off yes it is wrong to abuse an exploit but at the same time, if every1 else is doing something that will help them collecting gear u cant just sit on your ass and not do everything to be the nr 1. yes maybe they would get a ban maybe they would lose the items they got but if u wanna be the nr 1 guild u cant just rely on blizzard to punish those who did do it, no u gotta get in there and do everything u can to keep up with the rest of the guilds thats using this, thats reality and it is this way in every sport not just gaming! anyway thats my view on it, i dont think paragon did anything "wrong" they did what they had to do to keep up with the competition!

[Emaja]

well..many people did mistake. Just bad time for progress. 50% are banned, another 50% cant do much :D

[Atalyx]

Why is everybody here hellbent on making Paragon look like a group of standoffish jerks who are avoiding the scenario at all costs? Never once have they denied what they did, and never once have they said that they don't deserve punishment. All they've stated is that they were not the only ones to do it and they were not the first.

If I'm wrong about this please call me out, but is anybody in this conversation actually vying for a world first kill? I know I'm not in the running by any means. But if you're in the running please let us all know, maybe it would add some credibility to your arguments. Cause right now all

Paragon is not the only guild that is going to see this ban. My guess is the majority of the top 15-20 guilds are going to see the ban. My prediction? We won't see a full clear next week, or even the week after that when Paragon is allowed to get back in there. If you look at T12 progression, Paragon didn't get their Heroic Rag kill until the second week of hard mode pulls, the third week since the patch went live, their kill date was July 19, 2011. There is a huge discrepancy between the world first and second kills as well, Method didn't see their kill until July 26, 2011, another week later, and then if you jump down to the 20th kill, by Apex, respectively: they didn't get their kill until August 18, 2011.

That's a bunch of facts and dates to back up one simple statement. It is my prediction that the race won't change too much, just instead of a race for the bosses before Deathwing, it'll be a race for Deathwing himself. But in the end, isn't that all that mattered to start with?

Who knows in the end though. Maybe it's time for a new world champ to be named, I for one, will be interested to find out. Though I'll still be rooting for Paragon all the way down.

[naPS]

1st off yes it is wrong to abuse an exploit but at the same time, if every1 else is doing something that will help them collecting gear u cant just sit on your ass and not do everything to be the nr 1. yes maybe they would get a ban maybe they would lose the items they got but if u wanna be the nr 1 guild u cant just rely on blizzard to punish those who did do it, no u gotta get in there and do everything u can to keep up with the rest of the guilds thats using this, thats reality and it is this way in every sport not just gaming! anyway thats my view on it, i dont think paragon did anything "wrong" they did what they had to do to keep up with the competition!

Thinking that you have to do something you know is wrong because 'everyone else is doing it' is the most childish reaction to a simple moral dilemma we all face at one point or another in our lives. It's so simple, in fact, that you could probably ask any 6 year old if they would jump off a bridge because their friend did, and they would roll their eyes at you because they're sick of hearing that lame expression.

But, in the end, it's true. It's what separates the adults from the children. If your initial reaction to this problem is to go ahead and do it because you think you are losing out on something if you don't, you are a child. Plain and simple. The correct, and ultimately wise, decision is to always do what you know is right, and let the chips fall as they will. In the end, the smart move is doing the right thing, because experienced people know that "Karma is a Bitch" and simple minds that try to advance their cause by gaming an established system will always get smacked back. Always. It's happened a million times in history, and it's going to happen here.

I'm hoping that there's guilds out there that didn't job the system and did things appropriately. I'm sure there are. And I'm sure there's guilds out there that knew of the exploit, yet refused to use it. To them I wish the best of luck, and I hope something good comes out of it for them. To the rest of the guilds that abused the system knowingly in some misguided effort to gain an advantage in a race to kill a dragon in a video game, I hope you know that the community in general lost a lot of respect for you, and that your integrity from this point on will always be called into question. That's something you can never get back.

[naPS]

That's a bunch of facts and dates to back up one simple statement. It is my prediction that the race won't change too much, just instead of a race for the bosses before Deathwing, it'll be a race for Deathwing himself. But in the end, isn't that all that mattered to start with?

From this point on, it doesn't matter if the race changes or not as lots of folks will already declare them losers for cheating. Ask Ensidia how many times a day they get flamed for exploiting. Sure, they may be two of the top guilds in the world, but they are irrelevant in a lot of peoples eyes now because they are nothing more than simple cheaters. And, they're bad cheaters at that, because they've both been caught.

There's no doubt in my mind personally that Paragon is the top raiding guild in the world. Their strategies are intelligent as all hell, and their execution is flawless. But, now they're known exploiters. So whenever someone posts about Paragon doing something awesome now, there will always be that doubt in the back of a lot of peoples minds about whether they really are the legit best at what they did, or if they exploited their way there. It's sad really, because they really did some amazing things in-game with some of the hardest fights ever created.

[arx]

Trolls and poorly written flames will be moderated, in case it wasn't obvious.

[Atalyx]

yet they did for their own good

They've posted several times in the past few days that they did what they did because they felt like it was what was necessary to stay competitive in the race and that they are ashamed of what they did. I for one and choosing to believe these statements. Am I an optimist? Most likely. I choose to believe the best in people, and when they say they did not want to partake in this, then I believe them, and I would believe any other guild that told me this, except for maybe the one who discovered the exploit.

Blood Legions didn't cheat? Good for them. Do they deserve the world first kill because of this? Most likely. Does that mean they are actually going to get it? Theres only a possibility, it's still an open race at this point as far as I'm concerned. Based off kill dates.

Let's consider for a second that Blood Legion does get the kill. What is that going to mean for them as a guild? Unfortunately, WoW is an internet based game, and the internet is the breeding ground for trolls. Any celebrating that Blood Legion does, any congratulatory threads, any video they put up, will instantly be trolled by thousands of people saying "They had no competition this tier." "Paragon, or Method would have gotten it had the ban not gone out." Whichever way you look at it there will be trolls.

Also, Paragon gets the next week off! (Assuming they don't have alt accounts) This means a week of watching videos from lesser guilds who are always excited to upload their kills to YouTube. Watching parses. Watching armories. They get a week of seeing what works and what doesn't work, and figure out how this will benefit them, if at all.

You're allowed to think what you will, just make sure your decisions are informed. Know also, that it is my belief, that the race hasn't changed a bit.

[ByebyeSponsors]

Thinking that you have to do something you know is wrong because 'everyone else is doing it' is the most childish reaction to a simple moral dilemma we all face at one point or another in our lives. It's so simple, in fact, that you could probably ask any 6 year old if they would jump off a bridge because their friend did, and they would roll their eyes at you because they're sick of hearing that lame expression.

But, in the end, it's true. It's what separates the adults from the children. If your initial reaction to this problem is to go ahead and do it because you think you are losing out on something if you don't, you are a child. Plain and simple. The correct, and ultimately wise, decision is to always do what you know is right, and let the chips fall as they will. In the end, the smart move is doing the right thing, because experienced people know that "Karma is a Bitch" and simple minds that try to advance their cause by gaming an established system will always get smacked back. Always. It's happened a million times in history, and it's going to happen here.

I'm hoping that there's guilds out there that didn't job the system and did things appropriately. I'm sure there are. And I'm sure there's guilds out there that knew of the exploit, yet refused to use it. To them I wish the best of luck, and I hope something good comes out of it for them. To the rest of the guilds that abused the system knowingly in some misguided effort to gain an advantage in a race to kill a dragon in a video game, I hope you know that the community in general lost a lot of respect for you, and that your integrity from this point on will always be called into question. That's something you can never get back.

I totally agree with you sir.